This post is by guest blogger Aramis.
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Categories: Interview
Tags: ccg, survival horror
Pennsylvania, land of chocolate, cheese steaks and card game designer, Joe Fourhman. We stumbled across Joe’s Fatal Frame II: Crimson Butterfly game (Thanks to Beyond the Camera’s Lens. –Ed.) and, being fans of the original PS2 title, decided to have the folks at Kinko’s print it up (hint: their copiers are smarter than their average employee). After getting our grimy mitts on Joe’s creation we shuffled up for a fun and surprisingly simple game. It’s one of those games that’s definitely easier to just play than to try to understand only from reading the rules. After a few dramatic games (“You didn’t really need that camera upgrade, did you?”) we decided to email Joe and find out more about him and his take on card games, video games and other creative endeavors.
GC: So, Joe, tell us about yourself.
J: I’m 32 and live in Pennsylvania, USA, where I work for a local television station. I’ve been married for almost seven years; we have a one-and-a-half year old son and two cats. I have been a gamer for as long as I can remember, and I have designed my own games for slightly less than that. I have my own weblog at fourhman.com, where I often discuss video games and card games.
GC: I’m guessing yes, but for the record is Fatal Frame 2 your favorite of the series?
J: Without hesitation, I can say Fatal Frame 2: Crimson Butterfly is my favorite of the three. [SPOILER] The whole one-twin-kills-the-other thing is beautifully horrifying, and the entire story is so well-told. [END SPOILER] I actually thought the falling asleep angle to Fatal Frame 3: The Tormented was kind of hokey.
GC: What other video games do you enjoy?
J: Some of my other favorite video series are Animal Crossing, Kingdom Hearts, Katamari Damacy, Grand Theft Auto, Pokémon, Metal Gear Solid, Paper Mario, PaRappa, and the Deception/Trapt series. And for the record, I thought Beyond Good & Evil and God of War were both vastly overrated.
GC: Also for the record I haven’t played GoW (shocking, I know), but BG&E is almost one of my favorites (stupid freaking stealth levels). In any case, Joe, as something of an expert in card games, care to give us the lowdown on how you pick your subjects?
J: The thing about fabricating card games based on Somebody Else’s Property is that I don’t want to bother with a franchise that is big enough to potentially get a “real” card game. Because then my game just becomes the crappy internet one that you have to print out yourself! I would love to do a Kingdom Hearts card game, but Japan already has one (is it any good? I’ve never found an English translation). (GC: Us either.) I can’t imagine why GTA doesn’t have a card game, except that maybe Rockstar figures the core audience doesn’t overlap between card games and video games. But it seems like it very easily could get one, someday. I guess I tend to stick with stuff that is a little more obscure, so I won’t get outclassed by Wizards of the Coast! [Fatal Frame] seemed like a safe and unique idea, and one that might be allowed to live free of lawsuits simply because the property is small, relatively speaking. If Tecmo has seen my Fatal Frame card game by now, I hope they think it’s cool! It’s by a fan, for fans, and I’d like to think they would get that.
GC: Neat. Anything new in the works?
J: I have a small optional expansion set for Fatal Frame: the Card Game worked up that makes fighting ghosts more challenging. I’m playtesting some of the new effects to see just how nasty I want to make it. It is a response to the idea that, when playing Fatal Frame: the Card Game, you usually beat a ghost without much trouble. So there’s a scoop for you! I also have some pretty solid notes for a Deception/Trapt card game, based on Tecmo’s weird medieval torture booby trap series.
GC: Yeah, I remember Deception. Very off-kilter, but a lot of fun actually. Anything else?
J: My biggest project is a full-on Katamari Damacy card game, which I have fully printed and ready to roll (pun intended). But I’m having trouble working out a good way for the game to end, so it’s still in the final stages of playtesting. I’m hoping to finish it up by the end of the year.
GC: Okay I know what I want for Christmahannakwanza. I’m glad you’re taking the time to make sure you’ve got it feeling right before you roll it out (heh). Given that, what do you think of the “cash-in” card games that seem to come out with every new anime and toy franchise now a days?
J: The cash-in stuff is a real problem, because nobody takes the time to make a game that matches the intellectual property. (I’m referring only to licensed games here, obviously.) Like the DC/Marvel Comics Vs System game… at no point do you feel like you’re sending powerful teams of super-heroes and villains after each other in epic confrontations. I look around at some of the newish games I’ve picked up because I want to re-create a favorite movie or cartoon or whatever, and it just doesn’t come off. Fullmetal Alchemist, Teen Titans, Lord of the Rings, Dragon Ball Z, Case Closed… none of these have struck me as being exceptional examples of turning an entertainment property into a corresponding card game. They may be good card games (most are not), but they’re definitely not good *licensed* card games.
GC: Are there any examples of card games you’ve come across where you felt the spirit of the property was well conveyed in the game?
J: Off the top of my head, the only recent examples of card games that might actually successfully mimic their original IP are the Soulcalibur/Street Fighter card game (because of the progressive difficulty mechanic which does feel like you’re throwing punches until you’re exhausted) and the Zatch Bell card game (because your cards are kept in a little spellbook, just like in the anime). And neither of those are even blockbuster card games, they just took the time to fashion a couple of neat little hooks that turn your imagination into gameplay.
GC: How do you keep your games “honest,” so to speak?
J: So right off the bat, I wanted to incorporate as many themes from the Fatal Frame video games as possible. It started out with much more photography stuff in it . . . you had to roll to see if the ghost was “centered” in your shot, for example. That was later simplified into the die rolling that is in the game today, but the overall point was to recreate the feeling of you, alone in an uncertain location, staring down a ghost with almost nothing to protect you. The game’s finish comes directly from almost every video game ever made: a boss fight. Most modern card games pit you directly against a human opponent; having the game itself be your enemy is more of a board game convention. When I was working on the endgame, I remember literally asking myself “Well, how do you win the video game? You beat Sae! So, it ought to be something similar in the card game.”
GC: Speaking of the Boss Battle, those guys are tough!
J: It’s interesting that you bring up the boss combat, because that grew directly out of comments from my playtesters (who are really just pals of mine who indulge me foisting my games at them). Originally, the boss ghosts were like normal ghosts, in that they did not “fight back.” One of the guys mentioned that he thought the bosses should be able to attack back… and the Boss Die Match mechanic was born. Incidentally, that is the basis for the Fatal Frame expansion set… giving the normal ghosts the ability to fight back!
GC: Yikes, so I have further trouncings to look forward to, yippee. Taking a minute from talking about your own games, what are some great card games you’ve played that have really inspired you?
J: My two favorite collectible card games are Doomtown and Pokémon. Doomtown being a horror/wild west hybrid where you form gangs of gunslingers and undead to exert control over an old west mining town that you construct as the game progresses. It has this great built-in poker mechanic that you use to resolving shootouts, which is just clever as all get out. And Pokémon has this deceptive simplicity to it that is just strategic enough to be interesting. It’s also dead easy to build a new deck for Pokémon, and I’ve never been a very competitive deckbuilder, so I appreciate that! As far as non-collectible card games go, I love Chrononauts by Looney Labs. In fact, I helped beta-test the sequel. It’s fascinating to see how they packed so many time travel riffs into one small deck. Battle of the Bands by Third World Games is also a favorite because it is easy and silly. And I just picked up Villainy, a new one by Human Head Games–it’s a clever and funny game of battling supervillains.
GC: As a zombie connoisseur I’m sure our esteemed editor will be checking out Doomtown posthaste. Tell us, what do you find gets you excited about a card game aside from the subject matter?
J: I tend to prefer games with lots of card complexity, where you have interesting card types to play and interact with each other. I also like card games that tell a story as you play. (Not *literally*… Looney Labs has a storytelling card game called Nanofictionary that I did not like because it is too much like all those fiddly party games where it always devolves into an argument between one player judging another player’s answer.) (GC: To be fair I’m a big fan of Nanofictionary, any game where you can end up saying that J-Lo is married to sentient broccoli she met on the subway is aces in my book.) I like it when the game has its own strong internal narrative, and the player’s role is to twist that story to an ending in which he or she wins. You won’t find me getting excited over a game of UNO or Bridge. I also greatly appreciate a game that has a nice visual look . . . attractive card templates, easy-to-read design, and impressive artwork and flavoring.
GC: We know what motivates you, but what challenges you? What was the hardest part of getting your game together?
J: The toughest part was coming up with a game that was balanced, accessible, compelling . . . and still contained obvious elements of the Fatal Frame world beyond just graphic design. I already mentioned my rejected idea of having to “center” your ghost shots, but the game also went through phases where ghost cards were not played on people but uncovered randomly throughout the deck, where you had to build the village/houses from cards in your hand like a maze, and I even briefly toyed with the idea of having “secret” numbers hidden on the cards that you needed red plastic film to reveal. So the final result wasn’t just one weekend of divine inspiration!
GC: Ooh! I remember those little pieces of red film from the Cap’n Crunch. Man, that would have been awesome! Back to your answer though, any other major sticking points?
J: Beyond that, it is sometimes a challenge to work within the art resources at my disposal. I have had some ideas for cards that I just can’t make because I can’t find any suitable artwork. 60% of the entire Fatal Frame card game comes from pre-existing materials found online – official Tecmo artwork, game screenshots, etc. Another 20% is from stuff that I captured myself after routing my PS2 through one of my Macs, and the final 20% is my own Photoshop work: text and design and layout and the like. I also create everything at a resolution that is suitable for printing via PDF (a lesson learned from my older, jpeg-only card games!), so I need source artwork that is nice and big, or else it turns to crap when you print it.
GC: Any regrets on how things turned out?
J: Of course, the final game has some mistakes in it… in retrospect, my font choices were pretty lousy and some of the artwork is too low-res and fuzzy . . . and there probably are not enough Spirit Orb cards . . . but at some point you just have to call it finished. The *only thing* I took away from my college years was a saying that “A [creative] project is never completed. It just comes due.”
GC: Hey, well, all the Game Couchers love it so I’d say you did a pretty great job. Before we let you get on with your life (and back to working on that Katamari game!) do you have any advice for novice game makers looking to follow in your footsteps?
J: I think the biggest trick is to make your game complicated but not too complicated and simple but not too simple. You need both for the game to work, because complexity equals depth and simplicity equals accessibility. A very good friend of mine is my opposite number in this regard, because where I tend to add complexity to a game, he tends to add simplicity. So I always value his advice when we’re playtesting stuff. You can thank him for eliminating the “center your shot” deal. So . . . don’t go it alone. Get your game in a workable form and show it around, then watch how people play it and be receptive to comments. Your greatest idea probably sucks, and you need someone to tell you *why* they don’t understand it. I knew from the start that I wanted other Fatal Frame fans to play this game; I knew it had to make sense to people other than me. Hopefully, most fans think I have succeeded!